Podcast Transcripts

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00:05

Welcome the Hivecast  and our Disability Confident series. I'm Zoe Hanson, the podcast lady,  and I'm joined in this episode by Ben Stickuch, Disability Employment Advisor Leader for Buckinghamshire Job Centres.  Let's start then, Ben,  with understanding the scheme.  What is Disability Confident?  Disability Confident is a DWP initiation that's been around for a few years now.

00:35

kind of led on from something called the two tick symbol that we used to have when I started in DWP,  scary about 25 years ago now.  And the idea for Disability Confident is  to simplify what was the two tick symbol to make it more accessible for employers  and for them to really understand what the commitments are to being involved in Disability Confident.  The focus really is twofold. It's about trying to encourage employers to take on more individuals with

01:03

health conditions and health restrictions in employment,  but also in how you retain your staff as well. it's understanding what support needs, what things like reasonable adjustments might be.  Disability Commitment is based in three different levels. level one is just a very  simplified version,  but it requires individual employers to sign up to  five essential commitments. The first is about ensuring that the recruitment process is accessible and fair.

01:31

So that would be just like making sure that you allow  extra time, you make adaptations for interviews and so on. So  if people might need a bit more time to discuss things,  they might want questions in advance, for example, just how we can make it as inclusive as you possibly can. How we communicate those vacancies.  It used to be when I started, used to have all this sending my application form into  the premises I want to work for.  Nowadays, everyone has a CV.  So...

01:59

can I just send my CV to the employer?  A lot of vacancies now online, I imagine that Fair High will have a website where people can go look at vacancies.  DWP itself has a find a job website where people can look for things. But not everyone is fully computer literate. They might not necessarily live in an environment where there is good Wi-Fi connections. Might live in a village somewhere where there's a bit of a black spot  in terms of what is available.  So can you still make those?

02:26

Vacancies accessible, can people still fill an application  or send a CV and a covering letter?  How do we make those vacancies  reachable to everybody? uh A basic idea, I used to think of it like a computer game. How do we level up?  So it's just about making it equal for everyone else. Then it'll be like offering an interview to disabled people.  But you still have to meet the minimum criteria for the role.  So we're not saying you have to take everyone on with a health condition. They still have to be able to do the job that is being asked of them.

02:56

Yes. So that's  a step we asked to try and do.  And then anticipate and provide reasonable adjustments as and when required.  That can be one of the things that scares people a fair bit. The idea of reasonable adjustments. What is reasonable?  And it's basically what is reasonable in your employees circumstances. So give me  an example of that one. A very simple one. For like we're talking now, you have a headset on. Yeah. So to help block out sound.

03:23

that might be all that's needed for an individual because they might be sitting at a desk where there's lots of noise  and that noise might affect them.  So you could just have some noise cancelling headphones. Perfect. A simple reason adjustment. A lot of it is just common sense and not necessarily going to cost an awful lot of money to do so. Another example might be just can we move a desk somewhere else? Can you work out a slightly different location?  Is it a case if you need slight  adaptations to the software? Do know how to put the subtitles on?

03:52

when you're doing the team's call. Yes. Just simple things like that, but what can be work for that individual to support them?  Gotcha. And then the last one, connecting with that with those  five core principles  about supporting individuals.  Not everyone  is disabled from the beginning.  You may get your disability during your working life. You might have an accident, you might have that hole you always wanted and had a fall, uh for example.

04:18

mental health as we are aware, one in four people go through a mental health episode during their lifetime. So it's being aware of what support might be available to support them.  You may not necessarily have the answers,  but being able to go, I don't know,  let's go and ask. So that's the key principles that a person, an employer signs up  for. And then there's a second one where you basically agree to at least one of the following, which could be paid employment,  could be traineeships, could be volunteering.

04:47

supported internships, et cetera, et cetera. But again, that will depend on what the employer can offer. If you have a big company, say for example, your Tesco's, you'd have quite a lot of turnover in staff. might have quite a lot of intake, you'd be in a of recruitment. If you're a smaller company, you're the food van on the motorway, you might need to hire one person every now and again. What can you offer in that particular time scale?

05:16

and stuff on now. you think that every employer  is  able to do this? I would like to think they could. Yes. Whether they are able to do so again will depend on circumstances. But I would like to think that  all employers should be able to make  some commitment to supporting people. Yes. Because otherwise you're missing out on a talent pool  that is really advantageous to people.  You look through the background, lots of things like Purple Tuesday, for example, the spending.

05:45

of the disabled community is quite high. But also, people want to work. you usually find that people with a health condition or a disability are the most loyal employees because you've given them an opportunity. So give those people those chances and the support that they need, that leveling up I'd mentioned earlier, and then you will find you'll get a good loyal supportive workforce as a consequence. And then so that's level one.

06:14

Level two, it's a bit more. They were asking from you, so it's more about how we develop your staff. So do you have practices in place to develop them? So do you have your one-to-ones, your regular reviews with your staffing? You've managed to have people that necessarily have those. But also it's how then do people want to get promotion? How do people progress within the company? Is there a mechanism to support people from doing that? Now it might be that those

06:43

individuals don't want to get promotion, they're happy doing the roles they do, but how do we then just develop them in their skill set to make them better  employees?  So what mechanisms do we have? Do you have a HR department to engage with that person who's sick  and needs a bit more support?  Do we know where to go to to turn? So it's just about developing yourself  as an employer to be a better employer to develop the staff that you have.

07:08

And then if you're feeling really adventurous,  we have level three, which is the leader status, which Fairhive are one of our leaders here in Buckinghamshire.  And that is again about promoting disability confidence, being an advocate  for disability confidence, to be that  shining example, I suppose, would be the best phrase to try and use.  So we'll go out and promote it to other organizations. If you're doing presentations, for example,  you may share it with your network.

07:34

uh It might be that you have your stationery from a certain organisation. You might go, oh, by the way, we have this scheme that might be really useful for you.  So that is the kind of general levels you want to do.  Level one and level two, the basic levels,  are self-assessment.  For level three, you will need  outside assessments.  And we have a system within DDP to support with that, if necessary.

07:57

We recently did a level 3 progression session for employers who were interested to learn how to do it  and we have several other level 3 employers that are willing to support if necessary  to help them with those signups and you might need a  local charity just to help you with that.  But  again, that's part what we're here to help support people with. So if people want to take those steps on the journey, you take them when  you're ready.  where would you start then? What is step one?

08:26

Step one is simply going onto the gov.uk website, typing in disability confident, and it brings you up the application process.  And all you're basically agreeing are those commitments that I mentioned earlier. You're saying what area you're in, whether you're in the Southeast, whether you're in the Northwest.  Also, you'll detail how many employees you might have, what the nature of your role is  with your administration, your office-based retail, et cetera.  And then you submit it. It takes about five minutes to do the application.

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And then  once that's through, that goes to our central team nationally that looks after it.  And they will then send you out notification.  And you get a certificate for three years.  And then the option to renew. We usually ask for two contact  names. So whoever's going to be your main contact for Disability Confident  and Alternative Person, just in case people move on. Yeah, yeah, of course.  So who does this help?  This might sound obvious to us, but actually...

09:22

Disability Confident, I think is twofold.  You mentioned earlier, you might be missing out on a big pool of talent.  So who does Disability Confident help?  It helps both the employees and the employers. It would help the employees because  if you have people looking for work,  you kind of got them in this pool of employers to potentially contact and reach out to if they're offering those vacancies.  And also then it just reassures  the...

09:50

individual, if they're applying for that company, if they've ticked that box to say that it's with a confident,  that they will listen. They will support the individual in what  steps they need  to  get the job, also to stay in work.  The flip side also is it helps the employers.  A, because it allows them to become more inclusive,  to take on a wider talent pool of resource,  but also for them to learn more about what steps are needed in supporting individuals.

10:20

For example, we have been running in Buckinghamshire for the last four years, a Disability Confident Employer Forum,  which is open to  anyone that is signed up to Disability Confident. And we bring in guest speakers  each time we do this,  and they've talked to a variety of subjects. So  we've had neurodiversity presentations.  We have had  a session on long COVID back a few years ago because people were finding that quite challenging.

10:48

And we asked employers, what would help you? What would you like to learn about?  suppose  it's taking down the barriers to understanding, isn't it? Exactly, breaking down those barriers. So a classic example is we asked employers about  carers.  We have individuals that have caring responsibilities.  And do you have such a thing as a carer's passport? And it was quite surprising to find that lot of employers didn't.  So we did a whole session on that to talk employers through  how then you can have a carer's passport.

11:17

how you can have reasonable adjustments on there to support them. What's a carer's passport? Let's just touch on that. A carer's passport is if someone might need  time off at short notice due to a caring responsibility.  But also, if you are a carer, you have a lot of responsibilities at home. Yes. You might bring them into work. You don't want to, but there might be times when you might be bit stressed, you might be overwhelmed.  So if you've got the carer's passport, people are aware that you are also caring. Yes. It just allows people to make a slight adjustment.  Yeah.

11:45

99 times out of you might not necessarily need it. But if it's there, it's there to support that individual. So they know they can still do their jobs, they can still get assistance and just helps them feel more reassured. And that people know without them having to point it out. Exactly. And it's usually a conversation between your manager and you. So doesn't need to be shared with everybody, et cetera, but your immediate manager should be aware of it. So they're able to put that support in place. Yes.

12:14

It's just again that little extra layer of reassurance and support that  keeps that person in work.  Because if they're having an issue at home,  they might be calling in sick, they might have a lot of health concerns as a consequence, might be really tired when they come in.  Their behaviour might not necessarily be  as appropriate, might be a more techy and stuff on there.  But if they're aware of it, that support can be input and then...

12:36

that person stays in employment, you haven't got the cost factor involved with recruiting a new member of staff.  You retain the individual and their skill set and their experience.  And they're again,  more likely to feel  valued and supported and more likely to stay with the company. When you talk about the forum,  what kinds of businesses and industries do you get coming to these?  We have all sorts because we've opened it up to anyone that has signed up disability confidence. So anyone at level one,

13:06

a level two or level three employer  can come along. So for example, you have Fairhive, we'll have the council.  I've had TalkBack,  a charity that supports people with health conditions.  We've had the NHS are now getting involved.  I've had a really good company called Harrison's Catering that have been involved with us for about four years because we've been doing it across Bucks, Berkshire and Oxfordshire.  We've had AbilityNet, we support people with  IT situations.  have had...

13:34

Santander, Network Rail, they are sign up to Disability Confident. It's a whole spectrum of employers. Whoever has taken that chance and taken those steps, we've offered it to them as almost like a reward. look, we're offering something back for you. You have taken that step to sign up to Disability Confident. Here is the form for you. What support do you need? We will help talk you through retention support, we'll talk you through conversations with difficult situations. What support do you need? So, we're trying to help.

14:02

develop them as well as we're going along. Actually, just saying that, can you give me a couple of examples of where Disability Confident has worked? Certainly. So our very first forum, we had TalkBack come along and they said, could I possibly have a chat for five minutes to promote the services of one of our cohort we're working with, a young individual with a learning disability that had struggled to secure gainful employment. They would get jobs, but they would not last very long. And that was because they had sometimes trouble with

14:32

presentation skills.  So they've got the skills but doesn't necessarily come out of them in the way they want to do.  And Harrison's Catering offered to take them on  because they had some really good admin skills to work in the finance department.  So it took them on on a short term contract.  Very impressed. So then offered them one day a week and consequently from working at Harrison's Catering that person is then moved to Fairhive. without that

14:57

network of being able to speak to the employers, this individual would not have profound gainful employment.  And so  they've been working out for at least,  as I said, this event, this first one was about four years ago. So that tells you  the  time in which they've been back in employment  and it is helping them develop each time they're going into work. That's fantastic. Any others that you can just give me right now? Yeah, I'll give you a good and a bad example. Okay. I think would be quite useful to you. At the moment we have our

15:26

CFCD exercise going on in the job centres. Now this is working  best way to like counter for  investigation department and we're doing a two week  movement to work work experience placement. And my DEA has been working individual for quite some time.  Very strong social anxiety would  struggle to leave the house,  struggle to go anywhere independently.  And they've got them to  the stage where they were getting the bus to travel into the job centre to meet the DEA.

15:53

And they found this work placement  and said, look, you'd be working here. Why didn't you come work here? You kind of know the route coming into the job centre. you know where you know where you're going, et cetera. And so they've just, believe today, it's the last of their first week.  And I've arranged my DEA to go in and have a chat with them, just to say how proud we are of them for taking that step to look where they were  when they started seeing the DEA and they couldn't even travel in.

16:19

to the point where they're now coming into the building to go and do a work experience placement that potentially can lead to an interview for the job.  DWP is a disability confident leader.  So that is a really good example. How do you feel when something like that happens? Because it must make you feel proud, but it must feel like it's a real lift for the whole place, isn't it? It's not just for that individual. It's for the whole company, I suppose. It's for the whole industry. It's why we do this.  The roles that we do,

16:47

It is difficult trying to overturn people's perceptions and the challenges that we face doing that. So take the wins when we can. Yeah. And so it is a wonderful moment when you see someone progress to that stage. My DA was just so happy when they were there and they'd started. They got through the first week. So go and have a chat with them. Let them know that you feel so proud them because I said that will reassure them that they're doing a good job. Yeah. And then hopefully that will help us move forward with those. And actually.

17:15

That's a great point as well, isn't it? It seems that in this world where we are now, that people are very quick to point out the problems, but actually not to commend somebody that's done something great. And we all need that, right? Absolutely. The world has completely changed over the years. So I said I'm going give you a good and a bad example. So I will go back to when I was looking for work. So this is about 20 odd years ago. I'm not going to reveal my age on this particular podcast. And I had been looking for work. was at university at the time doing my degree.

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And so my mum went to the job centre to ask about jobs because I was going to be looking at work  at some point shortly afterwards.  And they asked the question, oh, does your son have any health conditions? And my mum mistakenly said, I'm deaf.  I'm actually partially deaf in both ears.  And they went, oh, there's a job pushing trolleys.  Do think he can manage that?  And I thought, OK. How does that make you feel though, when you think about that now?

18:13

Well, it is one of the reasons why I do what I do.  But at the time I just thought, really? And it's that perception  again, comes all the way back to disability common is changing perceptions.  And so it made me kind of like, I'm going to prove you wrong uh kind of thing. And I never found out who it was, I never asked, et cetera. But  two months later I was working for DWP and I've been there ever since. u

18:40

Yes, I have a hearing aid, home, which I don't need to do. It's actually one of my great superpowers. I can not hear things  when it comes along.  But it is an immense frustration because that is just a perception about  having met me. Yes. A person has made that perception about him. Yes. And I thought that's one of the things you want to sort of change over people's perceptions. When you hear  words,  people forget they have such an impact. So when you hear about mental health or  neurodiversity or autism,

19:08

People have an association in their heads, an unconscious bias sometimes, about what that might be. So I kind of want to get that removed if possible. What do you think it is that employers are hesitant or frightened to get involved in disability confidence? Why do you think that there might be that? Language. Okay. Very simple, comes down to language and...

19:35

If you look at the idea of disability confident in the commitments, we're talking about offering guaranteed interviews. What does that mean? What does that actually mean? If you just read that on the surface layer, what does that actually mean? But when we explain it is they have to meet the minimum criteria for the roles, but there's that perception again, oh, we're to get all these people coming along with complicated issues that might have difficulties in their job roles.

20:02

because they tick the box that you have the guaranteed interviews. We're that's not the case.  They still have to be able to do the role.  Reasonable adjustments.  Again, language. What does a reasonable adjustment mean? Now that can be all sorts of things.  It could be, as we mentioned earlier in this conversation,  we were talking about maybe just  a headset,  but it might be adaptations to premises, et cetera. But not every reasonable adjustment is an expensive cost. Yeah. Also,

20:32

some reason adjustments you can't necessarily always do because of the actual location of the premises.  If you have an old listed building, for example, you're not necessarily easy to go and  make adaptations to it because  obviously of its  status.  But it is the fear of the unknown.  What you don't know can confuse, it can cause concern. And I wonder if  there might be a bit of a thought as to what if I get it wrong?

20:59

But actually, when you're talking about Level 3  and people like Fairhive and DWP and  all of these big organisations getting involved,  actually they're there to support you as well, aren't they? Well, that's where myself and my team come in as Disability Employment Advisors. So we are there to help people through  the journey with Disability Confident. And it was another reason why we wanted to set the forum up because

21:24

actually, if you don't know the answer, it'd nice to know there's someone else I can speak to or someone else has gone through the same experience.  Because if you are  a HR person on your own or you're a small company, it is quite a scary thing. I don't know what to do.  And  it's okay to say I don't know.  But the worst thing possible is to do something, do it wrong  and  go, oh, I didn't know. Well, actually, just ask. We'll happily talk it through.  So we've done...

21:53

sessions on reasonable adjustments.  I've gone to the NHS, I've done uh some series of presentations through the GPPA or the General Practitioner Provider Alliance  talking about subjects like this.  So there are support organizations out there. There's things like access to work,  but there's also mental health support service via access to work that most people aren't aware of. So  we've arranged for employers to listen to them to talk about it.  So there's a lot of information.

22:23

I don't know all the answers, I'll freely admit I don't know everything. It's impossible for a human being to know, unless you're Stephen Fry, to know everything in its entirety. So I think it's very important to just people know the limitations and go, okay, I need to go and ask. But that's where we then we have the forum. We also have all the different support organizations that come and talk and leave their details. So people know there is that support in the community to reach out to.

22:49

Thank you so much for such a brilliant explanation of what Disability Confident is.  So if  any organisation,  any kind of employer wants to get involved in this,  they just need to go to gov.uk and put in Disability Confident, right? Exactly. Just go into gov.uk, type in Disability Confident and  or do Disability Confident and it should come up.

23:12

There you go, Chicken or egg. whichever comes first and stuff on there. Then that should be it. That's all they need to do. And then each month we get a list of people who have signed up. And what we will try to do is to reach out to these employers and go, we've just received Disability Confident. Let me introduce myself. I'm the Disability Employment Advisor Leader.

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This is what we offer in terms of the forum. If you'd like a follow up conversation, please let me know. And one of me and myself and my team will be in contact. Perfect. We try to make sure that everyone's communicated to. Yeah. And then there's the forum. And actually that just sounds brilliant because it's just a resource, isn't it? It's just a hive of information. That's what we always wanted from it on there. And that's why we have our forum. So our next one will have presentations, a slightly different theme. We have access to work.

24:01

So tell people what that is, how they can refer to it, how they can get support from it.  But because we're also conscious on retention and keeping people in employment,  I've arranged for the Drugs and Alcohol Service to come and present about what they offer in support. But we've also got our ex-offender team coming in about  how to support people with criminal convictions if they come through because they may be an overlap  in terms of health.  But again, how do we keep the staff that we've got and develop them?

24:27

So we have three presentations lined up. There'll also be some updates on what we've been doing and the usual statistics and stuff on there so you can see how we've been helping people over the last few years. So just mentioning the statistics, can you give me a couple of those that will just promote disability confidence? There's a nice challenge for you. Absolutely. So I think the key thing for me in terms of promoting disability confidence is the disability employment gap. When you see the difference between the amount of people in employment

24:56

with a disability and those without, it becomes quite stark. So the disability employment gap is 28.5%. So this is at quarter to 2024, the latest statistics. so effectively we were finding, I have it written down just to help me with this one here, that 53.1 % of people with a disability were in employment. 53.1%. And 81.6 % of people

25:24

without a disability are in employment. So when you look at the difference, it's 28.5. And that's massive. That's huge. But the interesting statistic, when I looked it through, was for 50 to 64 year olds, it's actually 31.5%. So the older you get, it gets harder. For 18 to 24 year olds, it is 22.1. So one of things we're trying to encourage

25:52

particularly disability confident is to get people into work because as you get older it gets harder to find those jobs. And we know there is a perception again about health and older workers  also  close to retirement age whenever that might be, who keeps changing it seems and stuff on there.  But the more we're able to support people and get them into work at the earliest entrance. when I mentioned earlier about some disability confident, about traineeships, about apprenticeships,

26:19

about supported internships, the volunteering, giving people those opportunities at a younger age. So they've got those skills, they're in employment, and then that gives them better chance to have that career. Otherwise, you're looking at a situation where a person, as they get older, will find it more of a struggle. I am in absolutely no doubt that disability confident is changing lives and employment.

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If you want any more information and if you want to find out about Disability Confident  and becoming a Disability Confident employer,  just go to gov.ukor just search for Disability Confident. Thank you so, so much for listening.

[00:00:00] Welcome to The Hivecast and our Disability confidence series. I'm Zoe Hanson, the podcast lady, and I'm joined in this episode by Ben Stykuc, disability Employment Advisor leader for Buckinghamshire Job Centres. And John Wallbank, assistant director of people at Fairhive Homes. So. Why is disability confident needed and what can it do for my business?

[00:00:34] John, I think. Let's start with your story, because it all sort of ties in, doesn't it? It does. Yeah. So I've been passionate for people with disabilities, passionate to make a difference for people with disabilities, my whole adult life. And I think the main reason for that is it's a massive personal passion of mine.

[00:00:52] Okay. So I was 16 years old and I was a sort of fit healthy lad at 16 years old. Um, I remember weighed about [00:01:00] 12 stone, so normal teenager, but then I started going to the toilet all the time at 16. Okay. Um, and I lost five stone. In weights. Wow. In about two weeks. So I went down to seven stone. I remember when I was 16, I've got real vivid memories.

[00:01:15] I was thirsty all the time. Okay. And what I was finding is that my, I had no saliva in my mouth and my mouth was like stuck together. Okay? Absolutely stuck together. And clearly I was very poorly and I was admitted to hospital, and I was diagnosed with Type one diabetes right now, type one diabetes. Is a tough condition to have.

[00:01:34] There are four symptoms of type one, um, which is thirsty all the time. Go into the toilet all the time, tired and thinner. I was displaying all four of these symptoms, but this was back in the day before the internet was here and there. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, do you go to library and understand what the symptoms are?

[00:01:51] We didn't know so much. So, um, I had that, um, those classic symptoms. So eventually what happened is that my body. It's, uh, my body attacked [00:02:00] my pancreas. Um, and since then, I've now been taking a lifetime of insulin injections to keep myself alive, and that is actually quite challenging sometimes. Yeah. So I have to keep my blood sugar within prescribed NHS targets.

[00:02:16] So blood sugar within the NHS is measured in millimoles per litre. And I've got to keep my blood sugar within four and eight. So when I was first diagnosed, when I was 16, my blood sugar was 56. So seven times what it should have been. So hence I was very poorly. And I've now had type one for 33 years, and the numbers associated with type one is quite staggering.

[00:02:38] So I've done about 85,000 insulin injections. So is this every, every day? You have to do that every day. Okay, so you, you, you are taking short-term insulin when you are having a meal and then you take long-term insulin overnight, but as well as the insulin injections, you also do blood tests to make sure you are keeping your blood sugar within the required NHS [00:03:00] targets.

[00:03:00] And I've done nearly 300,000 blood tests, um, over my life. So the numbers associated with diabetes and the. Work involved with diabetes is pretty tough. I mean, it's quite a sobering thought though. 'cause if I'd been born before 1921, I'd have actually died at 16. 'cause instantly was only invented and discovered in 1921.

[00:03:24] So technology now is making a massive difference. So. Historically, I would've done blood tests on my finger, whereas like now I've got this amazing gadget and I've got a, a sensor in my arm so I can like do pain-free testing. But one of the hardest things about diabetes, that is that you, you live with it every day, every minute, all the time.

[00:03:42] You always have to think about what you're doing. Um, my wife has often said she just wishes she could take diabetes off me for one day,  just one day to give me a rest from having it. Because I'm always thinking about if I go low on blood sugar, what can happen? So basically what can happen is that you get symptoms.

[00:03:58] You can shake, you can get confused, you can [00:04:00] get dizzy. I could go unconscious. So actually, if I did go unconscious, obviously you'd have to call an ambulance. But touch wood, it's only happened to me twice in my life when I was a teenager touching wood. And at the other end, if I run my blood sugar too high.

[00:04:13] For too long. You then can get long-term complications, so you can get heart disease, you can get a stroke, eye problems, foot problems, and diabetes is the biggest cause of lower limb amputations in the uk. Also, if I don't hit my blood sugar levels, my life expectancy could be significantly lower, so you could lose 10 years of your life expectancy, okay?

[00:04:35] If you don't hit the required blood sugar level. So diabetes is a tough gig. You know, it's a hard condition to manage because you are always thinking about numbers. I always feel that as well as you're trying to hit targets at work, I'm always like trying to hit a life KPI. Okay. Because it's almost like I'm trying to always throw the dart at the dart board trying to hit the bullseye.

[00:04:53] Yeah. But also there's lots of variables. So for example. About to do a podcast. I could have adrenaline that brings my blood [00:05:00] sugar up, or I might be doing some exercise that brings my blood sugar down. So you are working in a fluid environment, but, and it's constant. And it's constant for your whole life.

[00:05:09] There is, there is no cure, like your wife says. You can't take a day off from it. No. You have to always be thinking about it. And I suppose, you know, I can see your little gadget, your counter there, that's telling you your blood sugar constantly, and it's out on the table While we're recording this. You know, you wake up and you have to look at that straight away.

[00:05:30] Um, and you might see it overnight. Okay. So again, for example, the, the gadget has got an alarm system now. Okay? So if my blood sugar goes too low or too high, it alarms, but my poor wife is amazing. 'cause often it'll go off at two o'clock in the morning for no reason. Yeah. Um, at all. So it is, you live with diabetes all the time, every minute of every day.

[00:05:48] And I would just say that living with disabilities sometimes. Can make life a little bit harder. And obviously Ben and his podcast talked about levelling up. You know, we really need to think about and help and things [00:06:00] like psychological safety is so key. Yeah. Because one of the wonderful things in Fair Hive is that I can be myself, talk about it.

[00:06:06] Yeah. I can very much say it's as part of me, and there's no judgment. I don't worry about people's impact. I'm just accepted for who I am, which is wonderful. But hopefully that gives you a bit of insight into why. Life for me, I'm so passionate about making a difference for people with disabilities.

[00:06:20] Absolutely. And, and I know that there was a brilliant example of being disability confident when you were in an interview situation. Just tell me about that. So two years ago I had an interview to get my current job, assistant director of people. I haven't had an interview for a long, long time. Okay. So I did have classic adrenaline going to my blood sugar.

[00:06:44] And remember the interview, my alarm went off, um, and my blood sugar was obviously going up. I think I might have mentioned, you know, if your blood sugar goes quite high, yeah, you could get quite a dry mouth. And it does have quite big impacts. And I just said to my boss at the time, um, our chief executive, I hope [00:07:00] you don't mind, but I'm gonna have to inject in front of you to bring my blood sugar right down.

[00:07:03] And there was this, like, there was no question. Yeah, it was absolutely fine and I didn't feel embarrassed about doing it. Now, historically, I have often felt embarrassed about injecting in public 'cause I have to, I have to have four injections a day. Yeah. I remember sometimes I would always go to the toilet.

[00:07:18] To inject myself historically. Okay. I remember when I was quite young and I was really mortified by this, is that somebody said to me, 'cause I injected in public, and they said, why are you injecting heroin? And obviously they thought I was injecting, I was a heroin addict. I remember at the time I felt really, really sad about that.

[00:07:33] I bet. Um, and so there's a lot of mental toll, um, to take on board. Yeah. And that's why. Psychological safety at work for me for similar with a disability is so important because then I can just be myself, not worry about what people are gonna say. Inject in public, inject in front of my colleagues. Yeah, and it's just fine.

[00:07:50] John's just being John. Tell me about that, the psychological safety. I know that you've just mentioned it there about you, but psychological [00:08:00] safety for. Other people, what does that mean? So from my perspective, it's just you can bring your full self to work. Mm-hmm. You can be yourself, you can express yourself, you can share your experiences.

[00:08:14] You can share more about yourself in a culture of openness and a culture of kindness. Yes. A culture of support. People will not worry then about sharing their disabilities. Yeah. Privately, publicly, openly. And I think that it's so important because then you get that sense of belonging at work. All organizations will have people with disabilities working in their organisations.

[00:08:37] Has that person with disability declared their disability? Have they talked about the disability? Have they talked, you know, felt, um, they can share it publicly and it's really a priority to create a culture of trust. Inclusion, respect and openness. So people could just bring themselves, bring their authentic self to work without having any worries or fear of doing that.

[00:08:57] And this might seem like a silly question, [00:09:00] but why do you need people to be their authentic self? I think then people feel that sense of belonging. They're much more likely to stay with that company as well. And I think from my own personal experience, if I felt I had to. Hide my diabetes in a box and I sort of like try to, you know, I wish I could, I wish I could literally just put it away.

[00:09:19] Yeah. And not have it, but I can't, it's part of me, you know, there's always a risk for me that I could go hypoglycaemic, which makes when I go quite low, and then people need to come and support me. So I have to be very open about my Yeah. Condition. And I'm very, very honoured that I can do that here. Um, and I think many of my colleagues in that same position, because actually you feel much more empowered.

[00:09:39] You feel trusted, you feel supported in that sense of belonging when you can bring yourself, and that includes your disability as well. Yeah. Well, it's because it, it's you. It's not even part of, it's just you, isn't it? You know? Yeah. And being able to be you is empowering for the employees, but actually it's supporting [00:10:00] employees to be the best that they can be.

[00:10:02] And actually then. That creates, uh, an environment of loyalty and, you know, probably harder work and all of that stuff. Right. And I think this really is why we've embraced the disability confidence scheme so readily, and I see the scheme as not as a. Process. Mm-hmm. I see it as part of our DNA part of our culture within Fairhive.

[00:10:28] And I think it really underpins who we are as a business. And interestingly, the National Housing Federation, who are like the voice of all housing associations in, in the uk, they've shared 29% of all housing association residents have a disability or long-term health. Condition. So representation for us is so important as a sector to ensure we have colleagues with disabilities making decisions and our workforce diversity reflects who we are and our business.

[00:10:55] And I think there is such a compelling moral case for [00:11:00] diversity for inclusion in the uk. And I just really think about what having a job means to me personally. You know, I really appreciate being able to. Give back to society. You know, I really appreciate the opportunity to work with great people in the, in the company and externally.

[00:11:16] Like Ben and I try and think about what would happen if I couldn't find a job. Right. You know, what would happen? So I have spoken to so many people with disabilities mm-hmm. Outside the sector, and sometimes they have sent off hundreds of CVs. Right. Hundreds of CVs and they can't find work. But actually finding work can be even more important for people with disabilities because they'll be your most loyal employees in your business.

[00:11:42] And the numbers of people in the UK are just absolutely staggering. So according to Scope, who The disability, A quality charity, there are 16.1 million people now in the UK with a disability of these 16.1 million people, there were 10 million people of working age. Who have a [00:12:00] disability, but only 5.6 million people with a disability are unemployment.

[00:12:04] And Ben, I know in the previous episode outlined 53% of adults in the UK with a disability in work compared to 81% of people without a disability in work. People with disability are more than twice as likely to be unemployed. And as those without, and one of the most heart-breaking. Statistics I've read is from the Office of National Statistics, and they say that the proportion for people with disabilities who feel lonely often, or always is 400% higher than for people without a disability.

[00:12:37] Okay? 15% of people with a disability feel lonely, often, or always in the uk, and that equates to two and a half million people. And I think about me in work. Having a work is a wonderful example of social cohesion. Mm-hmm. Giving something back, talking to people and creating that sense of community. And if I didn't have a job or I couldn't get a job, or I felt that maybe a [00:13:00] job was excluded from me because I was sending in a CV off, I think that'd be really heart-breaking.

[00:13:04] So that is what the disability confidence scheme means to me. Yeah. It means to attract, recruit, retain people with disabilities. And one of the wonderful things that we do in Fair Hive as a leader is that we share publicly how we employ people, how many people we employ, um, with a disability. And actually that stat is on our websites.

[00:13:24] And so if people with a disability are thinking about applying to work in Fairhive, they can see. And now here from people like myself with a disability saying, come and work here is a great place to work for. And we're, we can be really proud that we employ so many people with disabilities. Here, gimme this statistic.

[00:13:42] Virtually 10% of all of our employees have a disability within Fairhive and Buckinghamshire as a county has about 13% of the overall county has a disability. So we are nearly there, which is really encouraging. We always want to welcome more people, of course, but I'm really, really proud of that. Really that stats.

[00:13:59] And [00:14:00] so give me some of those sort of case studies, like when you've employed somebody with a disability, how has that worked? How has Fairhive become Disability, Confident? Well, maybe I can share you a business example. First of all around how the system works brilliantly here. One of the ways being a disability confident employer made a real difference to us was on recruitment.

[00:14:23] Okay. Um, so we have a commitment that we interview all of our candidates who have a declared disability. If they meet the minimum. Requirements of the role at application. So what that means for us is that if a candidate with disability scores 50% or more of the Shortlisting score, they'll be invited to an interview.

[00:14:43] And that makes such a tangible difference. Yeah. Um, to us as a business. So in Fairhive, 18% of all applicants are successful overall in achieving interview with a company. However, for applicants with a declared disability, this increases to 31%, [00:15:00] um, who go to the interview stage. And that really highlights the effectiveness of our commitment to support people with disabilities.

[00:15:06] And if I maybe to share you two. People examples around how he's making a difference here. So this is a story of Sam, and Sam is our operations project manager here. And when Sam had just started working at Fairhive, Sam noticed a deterioration with her hearing, and Sam booked a GP appointment and she was referred to the audiology department and she was diagnosed with a genetic hearing loss in both ears.

[00:15:30] And Sam was fitted with hearing aids. We gave lots of helpful information. Our facilities officer with Despina was amazing in helping Sam to think about what adjustments we could put in place to try and support Sam at work. And we organised for Sam to receive a Roger Pen, and that is a microphone that's connected to her desk at work and to Sam's hearing aids.

[00:15:48] And Sam wore the pen around her neck. Whenever she was in a meeting and it acted as a microphone to Sam to make sure all the sounds were made clearer. Yeah. Prior to having that equipment, Sam couldn't [00:16:00] hear in meetings unless she was sat next door to somebody and she found it very difficult to hear, particularly if multiple people were speaking at once.

[00:16:09] So these days, technology has moved on now. Yeah. And Sam has got a digital hearing aid that connects to her mobile phone and her laptop. But Sam just said to me, thanks to Fairhive. I was brought back into the hearing world by being allowed to get the equipment I needed to make that happen. And I feel so proud reading that and obviously that is why we do this.

[00:16:26] Yeah. 'cause it makes the difference for people like Sam and Sam is brilliant and you know, and it's huge, isn't it? It's such a small adjustment. That doesn't really make any difference to anybody else, but will make such a big difference to Sam. Spot on. Spot on. And one other story I'd like to share with you is a story of Ryan.

[00:16:43] And Ryan has had a child variation of ankylosing spondylitis since he was very little. And this condition has affected Ryan growing up and he spent many days frozen and seized in bed. It went away when Ryan's growth plates were matured. But in 2020, the full blown autoimmune [00:17:00] condition rapidly came back and is due to a severe constant pain.

[00:17:03] And then Ryan developed functional neurological disorder, which has caused rewiring in his brain, and this has caused normal everyday movements and sensations to be registered as pain resulting in the loss of control in his lower limbs. Right. Um, because of the waiting list, it took Ryan two years to see a neurologist, at which point the condition was near impossible to reverse after many referrals and seeing every specialist he could, he was told there are no doctors versed in the combination of both of those conditions.

[00:17:30] And Ryan's been told it's just a case of managing his symptoms. Oh my gosh. Um, and he, he's unlikely to be able to return to a normal life. So a big part of Ryan's condition is the need to keep his joints moving and free, but walking. Causes Ryan extreme pain. So therefore, for Fair Hive, we've given Ryan a reasonable adjustment, which is a riser desk.

[00:17:50] Yeah. And that gives him the opportunity to stand and sit as he sees fit. And this has helped Ryan massively keep his legs and lower back from seizing up. And he has also [00:18:00] reduced his pain levels. And this has meant that Ryan is able to look up, you know, to help his wife look after their son much more in evenings.

[00:18:06] And that's been immeasurable for him and his family. Yeah, and again, Ryan said to me, fairhive has been a godsend in looking after me and managing my disability. And a large part of that has been the support from my manager and the adoption of this culturally at a higher level. And I joined at a time I had to leave a previous job as there were no remote jobs.

[00:18:25] I was unable to make the journey every day and carry out the tasks I was there to do. I had lost a lot of hope I would be able to achieve or do anything for myself again. And Fairhive has helped. Change my perspective on this and what it means for an employer to care for those who really need that support.

[00:18:40] And I think that is why we do what we do, because it makes a real tangible difference to people like Sam and Ryan who do a brilliant job for us in the company. I think the confident bit of disability confident is twofold. It's for the employers. It's to give them the [00:19:00] confidence to know that they can do this and it's going to make a difference.

[00:19:04] And then it's also giving the employee the confidence there as well to know that they're listened to, that they're supported. Would that be right to think that Ben. I think. I think so. It's like John was saying earlier, it's about giving people the opportunity to be their authentic selves. And so much of the time we see people masking mirroring because they don't want people to see the inner self.

[00:19:29] Yes. Because they might be scared of what people might see, or they have a, a private life on there. They don't want to know what's going on because it's confidential to them. Yes. But that puts pressure on an individual and so you can mask for so long. But eventually that will snap. Eventually it will crack because you can't keep doing so, and that's why people sadly sometimes leave roles because they're unable to manage the pressures of dealing with stuff.

[00:19:55] So I think definitely giving people that opportunity. Um, [00:20:00] so like John was mentioning earlier with his diabetes, I have the same challenges with my hearing. I have to boundary set. I can't hear what people are saying to me sometimes. So if you are talking to me from behind, you may as well just be talking to a brick wall.

[00:20:14] I'm not gonna hear you. So if I'm interviewing, I boundary set, I say, look, I apologise advance, I do have a hearing issue. So if I ask you to repeat the question, it's not because I'm being rude because I generally didn't hear what you had to say. Yes, that must make quite a lot of difference because then when people know mm-hmm.

[00:20:32] Well, okay. We all understand it. Right? Exactly. Because I only found out I was partially deaf through error. Okay. And it was because I was in a classroom and the teacher said to me, oh men, what's the time in Bangkok? It was a question. I didn't pay much attention. I'm in school. And so I got up, walked over the clock, sat back down, said it's 10 past 12.

[00:20:57] He said, what did you think? I said, I thought you said, what's the [00:21:00] time on the clock? And so they recommended me for a hearing test. Okay. And that's how I found out. So for years, I didn't actually consider myself to have a disability. Yeah. It's only when I eventually joined the job centre that I started recognizing I do.

[00:21:16] So let's own that. Yeah. And let's have control of that. So it is who I am. And a lot of time when it becomes disabilities, people are concerned about that. That you're trying to separate. The disability and the person. Okay. That's not an easy thing to do. It is very much a part of you. Yeah. So it's like, okay, how do, it doesn't define who I am.

[00:21:38] It doesn't control what I do. It is just a part of me. So for individuals to be able to be their authentic selves, to go, I am this person. Who has this health condition, it doesn't mean that they are then having to pretend there's not. You're not trying to mask anything [00:22:00] anymore. You're just trying to be who you are.

[00:22:02] And so then that helps then to be the flip side as the employer. Okay, so this is what I need to help to support with, and that honesty is what's needed. So you can have that conversation with your manager. In confidence in private if necessary to make aware. And then that allows then to be yourself. Yes.

[00:22:22] So if you have to like I do and own my hearing, I know I need to wear my headset on when I'm doing my team's interviews. Yep. So I can control what the conversation that's going on. I'll make sure I'm sat at the front when I'm having a meeting. Yes. So I can hear, rather than sit myself in the bag. Yeah, but everyone knows I have the hearing challenges, so that they know why I'm asking those questions, not, oh, he's not paying attention to me.

[00:22:47] Okay. Okay. But it's that perception that we talked about earlier. It sort of takes away the judgment. A little bit, I suppose. You know, people will think, okay, well why are you doing that? Why are you going off [00:23:00] all the time, John? You know, now that you've told us, we know that you have to go and inject. Um, and it's not heroin.

[00:23:08] And then Ben, why are you always sat at the front? You know, these things. Just take away any kind of other ideas, I suppose. And it is that whole idea of perception. Yeah. Mentioned on that bit. What we don't know we can sometimes be concerned about. Yeah. Or afraid of. 'cause we don't know how to have that conversation.

[00:23:27] And if you are able to be open and authentic with an employer, it makes life so much easier because you are able to be approachable. We can have that conversation. How do we support you if you don't know there's a barrier? How do you support someone? You can't because you don't know and they're not easy conversations to have.

[00:23:46] You can't. I found out through accident, but then at least I knew. But you can't just walk up to someone and say, you deaf. Right? It's not a really good way to have that. Icebreaker. No, of [00:24:00] course. So it's taken that step back and it allows then as a whole disability confident agenda to, for the employer to be confident, to talk to people once they know about the health conditions, but also for the employers to feel safe, to know I can have that conversation.

[00:24:16] Yep. I'm not gonna be judged, I'm not gonna be perceived, I'm not gonna make a alteration just because, oh. That person is this or that. It's nothing to do with that. It's how do we support you? Yeah. So John, talk to me about how employers, Fairhive Homes included, can gain from adopting Disability Confident.

[00:24:41] And I know that there are lots of examples where Fairhive Homes have, have done this, uh, very successfully. I think there are three. Main benefits for employers, um, about really embracing the disability confidence scheme initially. Firstly, reputation and brand. So [00:25:00] people in the UK want to work for good ethical.

[00:25:04] Companies. Yeah. Um, and particularly at a time when there were 717,000 VAs in the uk, employee advocacy is so important. People talk about what have they done that week? Yeah. You know, we wanna feel proud about where we work. And so employing. People with a disability like me, I feel really proud to work here.

[00:25:25] And I'll talk about how good Fairhive Homes is. Yeah. Because of what we do intrinsically as a business. So I think there are such business benefits of having a very positive approach to employ people with disabilities, and then they'll be your biggest advocates and talk about what good work that is in the community.

[00:25:43] I think secondly, there are big commercial benefits. And the audience of people with disabilities in the UK is huge. So the combined spending power of family and friends of people with disabilities is 274 [00:26:00] billion pounds in the uk. Wow. Um, however. Businesses are estimated to lose 2 billion pounds a month in the UK by failing to serve customers with disabilities.

[00:26:10] 70% of disabled people might not return to a business after a negative experience with customer service. Okay. So the commercial benefits are there, but also I would argue, and there's research out there. Employing people with a disability, they are just as dependable. They're just as productive. I feel that I'm just as dependable and productive.

[00:26:30] Yeah. Um, as people without a disability. And that has a significant positive benefit on the company. So our employee turnover in Fairhive is just 7.6%, which is very, very low. Mm-hmm. Um, in comparison to our sector. And a key component of that is how we support. People at work and the psychological safety.

[00:26:50] And then you just need to think about how much does it cost to recruit people. Yes. 'cause it could be 20 or 30% of salary to try and recruit somebody. So actually, if your [00:27:00] turnover is very, very low, that is a real dividend. Yeah. Um, for that business. And I think the last real benefit for organisations is representation.

[00:27:08] Obviously Buckingham Shear 13%. One three, um, of the county have a disability according to the census, and I'm really proud. Within Fairhive, nearly 10% of our workforce have a declared disability, and 22% of our directors have a disability, including me. So our most senior people in the company involved with decision making are.

[00:27:31] Involved in that process. And so our workforce diversity reflects our, you know, residents and community. I'm really proud of that and actually that that can only sort of attract the right people as well, can't it to say, okay, look at the senior leadership team. We are absolutely driving this forward. We are disability confident.

[00:27:54] Come and see us. Come and talk to us. Let's see what we can do together. [00:28:00] So if you would like any more information, just get in touch with Fairhive Homes or you can search for Disability Confident and the Gov UK website should come up. Thank you so much for listening.

Welcome to the Hivecast and our Disability Confidence series. I'm Zoe Hanson,
the podcast lady. I'm joined in this episode by John Wallbank, Assistant Director of People at Fairhive Homes, and Rick Smith, Head of IT, also at Fairhive Homes. Let me start with you, John. What does disability confident mean for your organisation? What did Fairhive do? And why did they do it? Was there a catalyst for it? Disability confident for me and I think I speak for our business. It is not just a process. It is not just a badge. It is so much more than that. And I see disability confident as creating a movement of change. The importance of it really originated back in 2019. So in 2019, we were developing our new five-year strategy that started in 2020.
And as part of that, we actually asked our employees, what inspires you the most? What do you care about the most? And in our feedback from our employees, there were two key themes that were shared. one, equality, equality, diversity, inclusion, also known as EDI, and secondly, environment and sustainability, this is really what our employees care about. And I think because we had great buying and a window into change, that really inspired me to make a difference. And, you know, this is a personal and professional aim and ambition for me, but we've had such buy-in from the outset about disability confident around the business. And in terms of what we then set out to do, I first met up with Ben Stytuk in 2018. And since that time, we've had such tremendous support from the Department of Work and Pensions. And I'll say to everybody, there were a tremendous support out there to help with answering and helping you on your trajectory. But we really did three things to really get started on our disability confident journey. The first thing we did is that we got everybody involved. Everybody involved. This is something that's important to our business. You can't just pay lip service to disability confident. It's not something that you can say fix with a sticking plaster. It needs to have buy-in across the whole organisation. So people need to care about it at all levels. And what we have done is that it's really started at the top. And it's part of our strategic agenda. So we've actually held a training session for our board. And that was really eye-opening and thought-provoking about equality, diversity, and inclusion. We've got executive sponsorship on equality diversity inclusion from Julie, who is our EDI director -sponsor. And our chief executive Matthew sums up our approach when he says, we are totally committed to not only supporting the most vulnerable people in our community, but giving people as many opportunities as possible to help them move in our lives. And all the endeavors I have tried to do over the years, I've always been pushing to an open door. And so the buy -in from people, I think, is really good. Secondly, at a very early stage, we identified role models. So how can you bring disability confident, make it real for people? And we really
tried, and I think achieved, to create a culture of openness, because there'll be people in a business with disabilities. How do they feel about sharing their story openly, that they have a disability? How can you encourage people to share their vulnerabilities openly? And that's about creating a culture of psychological safety. And I often talk about you want to bring your full self, you know, to work, your authentic self. And I've shared in a previous episode, I have type 1 diabetes. I have it every minute of every day. I can't stick it in a box and pretend I don't have it. So I need to be very open and say, I have type 1 diabetes. It's okay. It's just part of me. But sometimes it's hard for people to share their most vulnerable thoughts about themselves. But our leaders in our business have just been amazing. A couple of years ago, I shared a video about diabetes and how it impacts
me. And I linked into World Diabetes Day. On the back of that, somebody else in the company with type 1 diabetes, I didn't even know. He said, what did you, John?
I've got type 1 diabetes. And we actually ended up having a coffee together and sharing diabetes stories. So the fact that we're doing, it really helps other people to open about themselves. Our assistant director of housing, Heledd, has shared that she has recently had a diagnosis of ADHD. And she shared that in our quarterly director meeting with all the directors in the company. And that was such a real testament to the psychological safety we have in Fairhive that people can be themselves and bring their true selves to work. And that is what psychological safety is, isn't it? Is being comfortable and happy in yourself, I suppose, and bringing your authentic self -to -work. Exactly. And when you've got to that position and people are okay to just talk about themselves in more of a public way and involving people with disabilities in your disability confident journey, don't see it as a process, see it as a way of improving your culture and creating that culture of openness. We have now really created safe spaces for disability within Fairhive And we've run inclusion networks, and we've run now 12 inclusion networks. And the feedback we've had about them has just been inspiring.

Talk to me about the inclusion networks, because let me understand what they are a little bit more. So it is a way that we pick a topic for a quarter, and it is to raise awareness about that topic and create that safe space about that topic so people can understand more about the topic. And then people also can share their own experiences. We started the first one. Actually, I did the first one about type 1 diabetes a few years ago. And I shared my story. And since then, we've had a whole host of different EDI elements. So  we've run, you know, autism, for example. We've run one on anti -racism, for example. We've run one on serious allergies. It's been a whole host of topics. And are they open to all of your employees, is that kind of the thing? You're saying, okay, come and learn a little bit more about this. Come and have a bit of understanding about it. Exactly. So come and share your story with your colleagues in a culture of openness so you feel that you can share your story. Or we might have somebody that we bring in externally to share their story, to raise awareness within the company. And I found them really, really inspiring. We had the biggest attendance for an inclusion network on neurodiversity. And we ran that just before Christmas. And one in five people in the UK are neurodiverse. And following on from that, we've now set up a neurodiversity working group. And we're looking at ways about how we can become more neuro -inclusive as an organisation. And you can focus on things like jargon -free communication, clear communication. that working group has now. An office without jargon. I know. Lock the ambitions. I want to come and work here. And we've actually evolved as a team. And all of that neurodiversity working group went through neurodiversity champion training recently. So that was requested by our employees for our employees to make a difference for our employees. And it's just been awe -inspiring. And I think one of things I feel really passionate about is providing that safe space for our employees, but actually it is with and through our employees to talk about their experiences and it raises awareness for all of us. And over half all of our employees now have attended an inclusion network, which I think is fantastic. Absolutely. And tell me about, I suppose, the impact on your workforce, the real effects on your employees and your culture at Fairhive? We've been working on the disability confident trajectory for a number of years. We achieved level one in 2018 and actually then quickly we wanted to try and move to level two and there's been a really good way actually. We've reviewed our processes and actually I've taken great heart is that we were actually doing a lot of really good stuff already and so we just reinforced our good approaches. So for All of our job at adverts states that we welcome applicants from ethnic minority backgrounds and applicants who have status as an individual with a physical or mental disability as part of our ongoing commitment to equality and diversity. If any employee asks for a reasonable adjustment, we just say yes. We make it happen. We make it happen. I've shared that I, with diabetes, living with diabetes can be quite tough. And actually a couple of years ago, I had a few back problems, and I was given a stand -up desk, which is amazing. So, actually, with work now, these reasonable adjustments just happen. And if you've got a culture of saying yes and encouraging, you know, those solutions, people feel really proud about that, and people can just be themselves. And we actually achieved level two, disability conflict employer a few years ago. And I remember at the time, I felt so proud because we've delivered so much. And then straightway, Ben Stickutche and I talked about how can become a leader? Because there was nobody else in the county at the time who achieved that leader status. And we talked about Fairhive could be the first homegrown company to actually achieve disability -confident leader. And we set out on that trajectory to try and aim for that. The difference between level two and level three on disability confidence status is that you need to have external verification of your approach to be a leader. And I was really honoured is that we had two external assessments. We had Dr. Kathy Hoffman and she's the lead GP for diabetes in the county. And we also had talkback and talk back are an amazing autism and learning disability charity who are such a force for good. Only 16 % of the autistic population in the UK are employed, 77 % of the autistic population state they want to work. And the feedback from both of those leaders, they were so positive around our approach, which was really encouraging. And one of the things we are now trying to do as a leader is share our story, make it real for companies, bring it more alive. And we actually achieved Disability Confident Leader in 2023. And then since then, I've been interviewed by the managing director of Bucks Business First, Philippa Batting. And again, I share the benefits of being a disability -confident leader. And I share my own story about living life with type 1 diabetes. We try and share the benefits on social media for people who can understand. And people who can see people like John in the company. Actually, Fairhive is a really good place to work because there's people like me working there. And interestingly, Ben and I, a few years ago, Ben Stickach and I wrote a joint letter to the Disabilities Minister to invite the government in, listen to what Buckingham Shear is doing. We want to do some really good stuff. Come and learn from us. So hopefully more businesses around the UK can share from our good practices. It just sounds like you drive forward on this at Fairhive. 

Now, I want to bring in Rick Smith, head of IT Fairhive. So, Rick, can you tell me what life was like before the support was put in place,
before disability confident came along? Well, I got diagnosed with autism sort of around about eight years ago. So I'm 54 now. So it was a late diagnosis. What I'd done over the years, I guess I found a lot of workarounds, I guess he called it masking now, and trying to appear typical in a professional setting. I was trying to appear normal and just basically manage internally my autism. I'd go to meetings and things like eye contact. I'm not very good at. I feel uncomfortable doing it because I know it's the norm. I try to force myself to do it. Yeah. And in meetings, I'm quite fidgety person and I try not to fidget it when I'm in or try not to at the time because I wanted to fit in. Yeah. By the end of a meeting, I'd be absolutely very tired, shall shall we say. And yeah, so it took a lot out of me. And obviously, towards the end of the meeting, I was less productive because I was concentrating more on not showing my autism rather than actually what was happening. And other things such as I'm not very good judging other people's emotions, et cetera, and I'm not always that good at, well, I'm probably not very good to express on my own emotions and feelings. When I'm involved in projects, I might not look excited even though I am. So people were misreading me as well and thinking, oh, you know, Rick doesn't really care about this project when actually it was something I was really excited in and wanted to push forward on. I think there's sort of general misunderstandings and things like that. When I became aware of my autism, I was, I didn't want to be, I don't want to be a label. Of course. Did you feel like you might be sort of boxed off? Yeah, yeah. I do want to say, oh, don't worry he's got autism kind of thing. Okay, okay. They'll forget about what I actually bought and my strengths and my contributions. Yes, because that just takes over that label. Yes, yeah. Okay. So there are kind of my concerns. And so it basically, I was navigating work without support and understanding for my colleagues,which was slightly isolating and quite exhausting. What some of the advantages of what I have is that I'm very dedicated and I will concentrate. So I'm concentrating and doing, really wanting to do well. Yeah. But then at the other hand, I'm also masking, and that was tiring me out as well. So it could be quite tiring. So can you tell me how disability confident has helped you, Rick? Well, I guess the first thing was it gave me the incentive and the confidence to be open about my autism. So as one of the senior leaders at Fairhive, I wanted to show that autism was a barrier that could be overcome. It should'nt define you to admit, you know, where you're not strong. Yeah. So being disability confident and at Fairhive, where they are real champions of this, have they put anything in place for you? Or is it more about the culture and the support that you get rich? I think it's the culture and the support. I mean, if I can mention when I first told the business that I had Yeah. I did an article on our intranet, we call it Hive Talking, but on our intranet. And in it, I sort of spoke about how autism affected me some of the things I perceived as the myths of autism. And I think it's quite honest and frank article. Can you talk to me about that? Can you tell me about that stuff? One of my big bug bears is always saying, if someone doesn't look you in the eye, you can't trust them, they're dishonest. Well, I can't at people in the eye for very long, but I'm definitely not, I think I'm a very honest person. Yeah. So it's things like that. And, you know, if you've got autism, then you're not going to be able to fit into a workplace. You're not going to be able to be productive and all that kind of thing. Yeah. And hopefully, I've been living example that that's all a load of rubbish. Yeah. And what was the reaction to the blog that you wrote? Yeah, it was amazing. When I actually published it, because it was a very personal thing and I'm not very good at personal things. So I actually published it late one evening when I knew I had the next day off. So I didn't have to write about the reaction to it because I didn't know how it was going to go down. Yeah. And then when I got back the next day, there's loads of responses both on the internet and personal emails to me. And they were all really amazing. It's really comforting. There was lots of people saying, oh, yes, I understand. And it was a large response as well. It really surprised me actually at the time. That's amazing. It must make you feel great and accepted and supported when you've got Fairhive homes. It's almost like a hug, isn't it, saying it's okay? Yeah. And I've heard all the statistics before, one in five, are neurodivergent, etc. But I don't think it'd really sunk in until I'd publish that because the amount of people saying, oh, actually, yes, and I have it. Or it brought it home. Yeah. Even though I've got it, I kind of still felt a bitworkforce and make the most of them. And people might not have the full diagnosis of autism or any other than neurodivergent things that are out there, but they may have traits of it. So by putting these practices in place, you're not just helpingthose that are being diagnosed. You're helping lots of other people as well. And if you've got an inclusive practices and procedures, you're going to have a much more proactive and productive workforce. And I'm also quite interested in, when you publish your blog talking about having autism, you have people getting in touch with you, who not necessarily within the Fairhive Homes family, but it might be other people that they know. And actually, it opens a conversation that is sort of way past work life. Yes, yeah. When people sort of say about the effects of autism, it's not just the person it has the autism. My children, the reason I found out I had autism is because my children went through the diagnosis post and I actually was realising that I was scoring higher than them. And so I thought I better check things. So, you know, even if it doesn't affect people directly, lots more people are affected indirectly through relatives, children, etc. So putting these things into place, If it makes it easier for, for example, if schools have the right things in place, and it makes it easy for the children, it makes it easy for the parents. Yes. So, you know, it's about inclusive to 15, making it easy everywhere, really. Yeah. And it's that understanding, isn't it? Yes, definitely. There is no doubt that disability confident is making such a difference.
If you'd like to know any more, then you can just search for disability confident or you can go to the GOV.uk website. Thank you so much for listening.

Welcome to the Hivecast and our Disability Confident series. I'm Zoe Hanson, the podcast lady. We're here to talk about disability confidence and the ripple effect in this episode. And I'm joined by John Wallbank, Assistant Director of People at Fair Hive Homes. Also by Ben Stykuc, Disability Employment Advisor Leader for Buckinghamshire Job Centres.

and Kate Ayala, Comms Marketing and Partnership Manager at Fairhive Homes. So let me start Ben with you. How does Disability Confident create that wider societal and industry impact? Well, there's a lot of domino effect, I think, within the work, within the Department of Work and Pensions. at the moment we're looking at heading towards

About 20,000 employers sign up nationally towards disability conference. There's constantly a growing number and they oversee about 12 million people in total under that umbrella being signed up to DC. So that's a lot of people. But what we've been trying to do is expand the knowledge and the sharing of information. So I get involved in the strategy side of things and I go to one of the strategy meetings.

And we've been sharing the work we've done here locally in Bucksparks and Oxfordshire with our Disability Confident Forum. And to the point now where I've had five different districts approach me about how can we replicate that model. Right, well in the other counties? In the other districts. So Dorset recently held their first Disability Confident Forum. I actually felt like a proud parent because we actually set them up and advised them through what to do.

But we've also had Yorkshire, we've had Newcastle, Lancashire reach out to us going, how have you done this? How have you worked to bring people in? So it's about sharing that information across to get the better service for the employers that we want to encourage to sign up to Disability Confident. A lot of work regarding Disability Confident job fairs, for example. And this is one of the steps that I was told about in trying to get Disability Confident employers to come to our customer base to come to the job centres to be involved in here's what we are, here's what we offer, you might be ready for employment now but these are the steps you need to do to be able to do these particular roles. I suppose the Disability Confident Job Fair works for the employers and the employees then? Absolutely because we'll come to the different levels of Disability Confident later on but it's about the engagement with

ourselves within the DWP. it's part of that partnership working. And a lot of this when we're talking about the spreading the word of disability confidence is through your networking is through who we're engaging with. Yeah. So locally, for example, I've been working with Bucks Business First, who are a disability confident employer, and they've been progressing towards their second level, and hoping to go towards their third level of disability confident.

they look after approximately 20,000 small to medium businesses in Bucks. And they have set themselves a target of getting at least 1 % of those employers to sign up to Disability Confident to increase that awareness. And myself and John, we've been out previously presenting at various events that Bucks Business First have hosted. Now they will do an event each year called the Bucks Skill Show, where they bring in all about 120 organizations from across the counties.

to present their stands to the next generation of talent coming through. And so you have all these, about 6,000 school children over a course of two days. during the course of it, maybe asked to present to employers during the course of that time, say, this is what disability confident means. This is the offer that's available to you if you want to sign up and why it's to your benefit. So it's spreading that message out. It's not just constricted just to Bucklehamshire, it's across the whole country.

We're trying to get that message out wider and encourage more people to sign up to offer vacancies if they have them, to offer the support for these individuals, but also to how you can keep your talent pool, how you can progress your talent pool to make them better staff. And it's not only about the workplace, is it? This is about creating an understanding of disability confident and it's not just the workplace. Kate, tell me about your story.

So working at Fairhive and being part of the network inclusions, I started to sort of realize that I could speak honestly about personal challenges that I was going through, which involved my son. So it was very difficult to understand as an older teen what he was experiencing, as he wouldn't open up to me. And it started to make me look at things slightly differently having been part of these sessions, which looked at mental health awareness.

And I started to think about what is it that could be affecting him? Okay. And it allowed me, gained a better understanding of anxiety as a real and complex issue, not just, you know, teen stress or nerves. He, he was very much of an opinion as we have discussed previously where he didn't want to talk about being nervous or feeling unsure because he thought he would be labeled and

it would stop him getting a job in the future or it would stop him progressing at college. It's that judgment thing again, it? yes. He felt if he told anybody, he would be judged adversely for it. But having been involved with all of the EDI and the culture development at Fairhive, it was very much something that I was happy to talk about internally at work so I could actually talk to my colleagues, find out what their experiences were.

and understand how to approach working with my son to say, this is normal. You know, this isn't something that you have to hide or be afraid of. And it started a conversation between me and him where we could start learning together about what he was going through. So rather than me being a normal parent and when he was, mom, I don't want to go to college. I feel sick.

He's manifested in a physical symptom and actually sometimes he was physically sick. And I used to think there's nothing wrong with you. Go to college. You can't have a day in bed just because you're a teenager. But actually what it did was allow us to look at both medical side of it to make sure there wasn't anything underlying. But when we appreciated that it was anxiety and he was talking to medical professionals about it, it then allowed me to lean on my colleagues, lean on my manager and really ask for help because I knew how supportive Fairhive Homes were that I could actually help my son and my family navigate through something that I had never contemplated before within my own home, my own family walls. So yeah, was definitely something that I was so grateful for and to be part of as well.

And it's allowed me to have a deeper understanding, but also a greater benefit in terms of I can understand where my son is coming from now. I mean, who doesn't want to understand their team better? course. And for me, was being able to not push beyond, you know, the levels of comfortness for him, but also being able to articulate that I'm here if you need me. And actually, it gave you the skills I'm sort of hearing that you needed to be the best parent that you can be. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. At some point, yeah, maybe it is, we'll just go to college. But actually, this is, now you're needing to deal with this quite differently. Yes. And I think there's, it's about having that conversation. You know, I started to question was I, had I put pressure on him? know,

Is it something that me and his dad had done where we had said, you know, we want you to be the best you can be and go to college and you can get a good job and all of that. Was that the pressure that he was feeling? So actually I could have those conversations with him to understand which part of his anxiety was causing concern. Was it the longer term goals or was it the fact that he didn't want to go to college today because there was a session he was.

nervous about, but we could, we could talk about those and I could then start learning with him around, well, actually if it's college and it's a session, what can we do to prepare and support you in that session and talk to your college tutors, college will have support for you. And he is slowly starting to open up. He has spoken to his tutors and he's also because he spoke to his tutors in front of his other students and his friends because they supported him and have been messaging him since, are you doing okay? How are you feeling today? It's made him realize it is okay. And it's absolutely normal. And more of his friends came forward. I get that all the time. You know, I really suffer with that as well. So he's starting to feel not so isolated again. Yeah. And he's part of that group. And you've probably started that whole conversation with them as well. So this is how widely this has an impact. Tell me about the sessions that you were going to because I know that Fairhive Homes run these sessions on EDI, being disability confident and maybe people bringing their own struggles and challenges to this. Tell me about the talk or the session that you were in that made you think, I think I might be able to use this. I think it was the Neurodiverse Network inclusion session that I went to. As a supporter of the program, I used to attend all of them anyway. My son also has a severe nut allergy.

So when I went to the series Allergies Inclusion Talk, I went because I wanted to be able to share my story. And that was something that when I felt comfortable in sharing that and then listening to other people's stories within the neurodiversity inclusion network, that's when I started to realise actually this isn't, I don't just have to talk about my experiences, I can actually get help here and actually, you know, I can listen to other people and ask them questions about things that I'm going through at home. It opened up a new world for me in reality.

because I could absolutely sit down with people and say, I'm really struggling because I don't know what to do and I feel like a failure as a parent. And that is something that, you know, as a parent, we would love to be able to come to work and forget about all the things that are going on at home, but that's not a reality. The reality is we're always worried about our children and our spouses and, you know, our partners and our wider family. So for me, being able to sit down with my colleagues and my manager and say,

You know, my son is really worrying me at the moment and I don't know what to do. What can I do? And those network inclusion sessions allowed me to have that conversation either after sessions or publicly within the session, which I felt comfortable asking the question, what can I do? Help me. That's brilliant. And even just being open to that and taking all of that on board, you know, I can feel that there's

There's a lot of emotion in this because you're right, you don't just leave your personality or your home life at the door when you go to work. It's impossible for it not to have a knock-on effect wherever you are on whatever you're doing. So thank you so much for talking to us about that, Kate. I'd like to know, John, a little bit more about the neurodiversity champions and seminars that you hold.

at Fairhive. So this all originates from the inclusion networks that we've been running for the last few years and they're brilliant. So they raise awareness about key topics and they also provide a safe space for people to open up and be themselves and we can externally host them or we also encourage our employees to share their own experiences and it's really they're really inspiring. So what kinds of subjects will you touch on on those? So there have been quite a few sessions run on disability topics

So the very, very first one we ran was on type 1 diabetes. I shared my own story. We've also held one about autism. We've held one about the menopause, for example. We've also held one about how we can become more anti-racist. So they are quite far reaching, but we held one in 2024, the end of the year, and that was on neurodiversity. And that was actually the most well-attended inclusion network that we've ever done. One in five people in the UK are neurodiverse.

But interestingly, 72 % of people then don't share their neurodivergent because they're worried about the career impact of sharing their story more publicly. So I think as a country, we do need to do better. And according to the CIPD's neuroinclusion of work report, only half of neurodivergent employees surveyed feel their organization has an open and supportive culture that they can even talk about neurodiversity. I think the more we can embrace psychological safety that people can be themselves at work. think it's really, really empowering. And our role as a disability confident leader is ensuring our employees can feel comfortable talking about neurodiversity and empowering neurodivergent voices across the company. And I was so proud on the back of the neurodiversity inclusion network. We've now got a really passionate neurodivergent working group. So people could be

neurodiverse themselves, might have neurodiverse family members, they might just have a passion to making a difference in the local community. So then in September this year, we were honored to be joined by Mel Francis from NeuroInclusive HR and Professor Amanda Kirby from Do It Profiler. And they actually facilitated neurodiversity champion training for the working group. And the sort of things we want to do now as a team of neurodiversity champions is

you know, really be that voice of positivity about neurodiversity, create a culture of neuro inclusivity in community, raise awareness in the community and do everything we can to facilitate removing of barriers. So I really think that the inclusion network opportunity is really, really broad. And interestingly, in January of this year, I actually did a joint inclusion network with one of our residents and we actually shared

One of our residents also had type 1 diabetes like me and we both did a joint inclusion network with our residents and he shared his story, I shared my story and that was a lovely example of co-collaboration. So I really think that you can share the story wide and far and it really just creates that lovely culture of openness and trust. And it can do no harm, can it? If you are in the right environment and you feel supported, it's only going to help people.

telling these stories. Ben, can you run us through the three stages and process of becoming disability confident? Of course. So if you want to sign up to being disability confident, there will be three levels that you would look to sign up to. The very basic entry level, level one, or the committed level, you can go to, you can find it on gov.uk or just Google disability confident. It will take you into the website to do so.

and it will take about five minutes to sign up to Disability Confident. You basically just put in your contact details, your name of the employer, what trade you are in, whether it's construction, whether it's retail and so forth, and that you are agreeing to accept five basic commitments, which will include reasonable adjustments, a guaranteed interview if you meet the minimum criteria, look at how you can retain your staff, et cetera. And then ticking just one.

of at least one, hopefully like a few more, of offering either paid employment, volunteering, sports internships, traineeships, apprenticeships, etc. So it's a very basic self-assessment commitment. You just basically put down what you can offer, submit the application and that will go through to our central team and then you'll receive a nice certificate, award a disability confident level one for three years.

there's two more levels, level two, level three. Now level two is self-assessment again, but there's a template you fill in. So then you're offering to how are you going to develop your staff, what your process is going to be. And what we decided to do speaking to employers earlier this year was we actually ran a workshop for people wanting to go to level two and also for people wanting to step up to level three. So just sign up to the basic level one.

And then if you want to, we will then reach out to people who are contacted as we do, if they're signed up and they'll receive invitations when the time comes next year when we're doing the level two workshop. If they want to progress, come and have a listen. We will talk through how you do it. So they're supported. Same as we were talking about how we support the employees, we also support the employers to take that step up. And we also run a level three workshop, which I...

very kindly brought John in to present the virtues of being a Level 3 employer to again talk through the steps and the processes. We delivered this earlier this year, back in June and July. We had 30 plus employers come to our Level 2 workshop. We also had over 20 come to our Level 3. I have had conversations with three employers consequently from the Level 3 workshop to take that next step up and also had to share one with Mark here because they were, they, joined from another county. So that's four in total. So there is an interest there. But if people are concerned or anxious about taking that step up because they're not sure what it will entail, I would encourage people just to start at the basic level, level one, and then we can talk them through the journey and give them the support to get to where they need to be. Absolutely. Just make that commitment to being involved, I think, is the start point. Also, there are out and about, there are opportunities

to get involved and there are opportunities to present and network and all of that stuff, aren't there? Yeah, so obviously it's building on what Ben talked about earlier on. I'm a regular attendee at the forum events and I've shared earlier on that TalkBack are the most inspiring charity out there. know, they do a pioneering difference, make such a positive difference for the autistic population. And actually I was introduced to TalkBack via Ben's forum.

So it's a lovely way that people committed on that shared purpose can meet up and then share those experiences together. And then a few months ago, I was asked to give a presentation at the annual Equality, Diverse Inclusion Conference hosted by the National Housing Federation. And I just gave a update to all of my sort of sector, sort of senior colleagues about why disability confidence is so important. And I talked about how you can create a culture to attract and retain and recruit people with disabilities.

I shared my own story about why it's important, but the feedback has been really good. And I think one of things I was really proud about is I've also now been approached by other organisations to really support them in their journey to become disability confident. And just as an offer of support to people listening for today, if anybody would like that support, then please reach out, because I'm sure Ben and I would be more than happy to support people in their trajectory, in their journey to become disability confident. Absolutely.

Ben, can you just give me a couple of insights into other employers that you've worked with and how Disability Confident has worked for them? Of course. Again, similarities to what we've been talking today with Fairhive. I visited Securitas over in Milton Keynes a few years or so ago because I was invited to present at one of their disability forums they had and they had bought all the network across the country.

had a giant computer screen on there, people couldn't make it. Just to talk about, again, options about access to work and the opportunities for them. But it was great to see them have that network, people to have that voice. And similarly, again, with the local authority, the Bucks Council that I was working with here, and they have taken that step up to be another one of our leaders. And they recently were doing a special educational needs forum for those that are due to or leaving school.

And so they wanted to have the support of the local authorities. They had a pool of students as the voice of the students, who were encouraging employers to come along as well. So we could learn what was missing, what the gaps were to help develop that journey. everything pretty much is about a journey. How are you going? What do I need to become more employable?

or what support am I going to need from employers to get there? And they were talking about adjustment passports because anyone that's looked up a health adjustment passport on the internet will find there's loads of different versions. What is actually a good one? What will actually work for me if I need to fill that in? But it's also an opportunity for the employers to go, what do you need? What am I looking for? And it's just building that process all the way through to go, right, we've got people due to leave school.

How do we support them to get jobs? We've mentioned earlier about the difficulties, the disability employment gap, but then you've got, okay, now you got into employment or you're struggling, you're now in adulthood. What support do I need there? And again, with the local authority, we've been talking through some steps they're going to be taking in the next year or so with their disability competent applications, their regular attenders to the forum. They contribute, they shared a lot of information with me about their carers' passports.

their health passports, which again is an opportunity to pass on to other employers. So they have an excellent contributor over the last few years since they've been signed up. But really, again, myself and John been called out to do several presentations, again, Bucks Business First. Without their support, it's been a real struggle over the last year or so, but they have reached out to their pool of employers that they work with. And myself and John did a co-presentation at their SEND events that they run each year to talk to the employers about this is what it means for you. Sign up please basically is what we kind of really encouraging people to do. But these are all disability competent employers that are asking us to come out and present, but then it's sharing that information because you can't do it on your own. John couldn't do it on his own. I can do it on my own. So we need other organizations to work with us. But again, that communication

There has to be that drive. People want to make that change. But I think that people, once they see the impact with somebody like Securitas or the local council or Fairhive Homes, once they see how it works and it does work, they can't fail to want to get involved, right? No, and it is about that. that looks nice and shiny. I kind of want some of that. People do have that. Yeah, but it is there's a lot about social values these days and the merits of being involved and the corporate and the whole ethos of trying to be inclusive. as we mentioned earlier, there is a massive gap in the employment of people with disabilities of 28.5 % between those that are without a disability in employment and those that have a disability in employment. That is a huge number. Yeah. So nearly a third, right? Nearly a third. And as you get older in life, it gets higher and higher.

So we've got to encourage people to take those steps, to find their first jobs, to develop themselves, to develop their careers, to stay in employment. Because we've been talking through these podcasts, it's so important. If you take people on with a health condition or disability, they will become loyal employers, they will tend to stay on. that, again, is a message we need to try and encourage people to understand. Actually, we've talked a lot about fear.

If you're scared of things and you don't want to make a change, well actually if you do, if you are prepared to take that chance, you get a much better workforce and a much more lower workforce as a consequence. Yeah. It's about believing in each other, suppose, isn't it? Supporting the employee will then support the employer, right? And it's quite inspiring hearing all of these stories about disability confident. I suppose the ripple effect that that can have on the workforce, but not necessarily in the workplace, how that can work outside of the workplace as well. John, give me your three top tips for employers being disability confident. So I think the first thing to find is who are your role models? Who is your voice of disability in the company? How do you bring it alive and make it real for people? So I shared a few years ago, my type one diabetes story and it was wonderful, the feedback that I got on the day, but also the fact that there were people in the company, I didn't know had type one diabetes, who then we partnered together and then we actually met up and had a coffee and described and shared our experiences together. So it is a wonderful way of bringing people together around a common cause and it will really, really improve your psychological safety and make it come alive for people. I think the second thing for businesses to do is you have people with disabilities in your company. How can you create a safe space for discussion? So our inclusion networks have been so inspiring.

So we've run sort of 13 or 14 over the years. Each one, I learned something new, and every single one. So really create a safe space for people to raise awareness, they can be themselves, and then openly talk about and feel proud to talk about their disabilities. And then the last top tip is that you will then have people with disabilities as a voice. You've got the voice of disability in your company, involve people with disability in your processes. So ask your colleagues with disabilities, do your HR processes work? What does recruitment look like? And get people to test your processes, to live it through the eyes and ears of somebody with a disability to understand how you can make improvements and then be open when they will make suggestions around how you can improve process.

Great idea. So for example, like reasonable adjustments for us, we just make it happen. But we make it happen. But I know that the dividend from people is inspiring. If I just share one quote about the feedback on our inclusion networks, people have said, the discussion was so open and honest and the fact that employees were happy to share their stories was inspirational. So effectively it's creating those safe spaces involving people. And I think those cultural shifts are the really biggest top tips I'd recommend. And actually, you know what?

You never know what's going on in somebody's life, do you? Until they tell you, until they start to describe that to you, until they're open enough to bring that to the table. Having those discussions as well, then you find out, you know, more from all of your members of the team and it can only drive it forward, right? It's only ever a positive thing doing that. If you'd like to know more about Disability Confident, just get in touch with us at Fairhive Homes or go on to the gov.uk website. Thank you so much for listening.